Most of the entries mentioning Jonathan are about salary payments. On September 22, 1841, he asked for an increase, but was refused. He applied again in August 1842, and was again refused, but it was resolved, in September, that a gratuity of five pounds be given him for his past services.

An entry of November 29, 1837, records: "Have ordered that in future the schoolmaster, schoolmistress, porter and his wife, take their meals in the kitchen, instead of using the porter's lodge for the same". Then on November 30, 1842, "It was ordered that the master be directed to take Robert Huggins, North Lopham, an inmate of the Workhouse, before the magistrates for an assault upon Edward Carman and the porter, as well as the master". There were also some entries mentioning David, son of Jonathan Hutton. "Out-relief ; 4 Mar 1847 ; "David Hutton, Kenninghall, 27, wife and two children ; 1 1/2 stone flour, 3/4 ?, & necessaries. 2/6d granted by Relieving Officer, 2/6d & 2 stone flour ; on account of sickness. 22 Mar 1847 ; "David Hutton, Kenninghall, wife and one child ; Funeral expenses of deceased child, and seven pints of porter on account of sickness in addition." David died in May and received a pauper burial on May 16, 1847.

An entry in the board minutes of October 20, 1848, says: "Jonathan Hutton the Porter having tendered to the board his intention of resigning the office of porter at the end of the current quarter on account of the infirmity of himself and his wife. Resolved that the resignation be accepted and that the appointment of a successor be taken into consideration at the next meeting of the Guardians."

By 1848 she was in her sixties and he was in his early 50s. Perhaps they were infirm but according to the next census by 1851 he had taken up bricklaying, very demanding, hard physical work. Jonathan lived for another ten years and Sarah lived 20 years. Jonathan Hutton died in 1859 when he was about 74. Sarah Hutton died at the age of 83 in 1868. Their eldest son, Robert Hutton, born around 1817 was the first of three generations of Robert Huttons. An agricultural labourer, he was born in Kenninghall, as was his wife Sophia, nee Rivett.

Robert and Sophia married at Kenninghall Parish Church in 1839 and in 1841 they were living in East Church Street, Kenninghall. They had at least two daughters and two sons. The daughters were Sarah Ann (named after Robert's mother) and Susan (perhaps named after Sophia's mother). The sons were Robert Johnathan (named after father and grandfather) and William George (named after Sophia's father and perhaps one of her grandfathers?). The Huttons became brickmakers, at least Robert and his younger brother William George did. That's probably what attracted the family to Banham, where there were two brickworks.

According to a Victorian guide called White's Norfolk Banham, covered an area of 3,963 acres, and had a population of 1,142 in 1881. "This parish is noted for the manufacture of cider, Messrs Gaymer & Son have extensive stores established over 200 years. There are two brick and tile manufacturers (Nan says these were Ludkins & Agnews, Ludkins being a much smaller one), the clay found here containing a percentage of oxide of iron which gives the clay for the red brick."

Nan (Hilda Brind neé Hutton) was born at Hunts Corner, Banham, which is on the Kenninghall Road. This is very close to a former pub called the Brickmaker's Arms which in 1891 (when the census was taken) was run by Thomas and Maria Gipson. They were the grandparents/ parents of Thomas Robinson/Gipson (?) who Nan went out with for a short time.

For some reason the local cider, which my dad remembers as Routs (probably an older local name for a brewery bought up by Gaymers), was not sold at the Brickmakers Arms.

To get the local cider you had to go to The Garden House, which was probably on the road to Attleborough. This was a large house with a carriage shed or stables which had been converted into a bar for the men. They would drink the local cider here, while the women sat inside the house. When Leonard Charles Brind was courting Nan he used to stay at the Garden House when he visited Banham. Here he would also play the piano inside the house. The door would be left open so the men could hear outside, and some of them would sit on forms (benches) in the garden.

The cider works had a whistle which was blown when the men had to go to work. Almost all the men of Banham worked in the cider works or one of the brickworks, Nan said.

Perhaps William George Hutton met Eliza Howard (born in Banham) near the brickworks. William George and Eliza's second daughter, Laura Louisa Hutton, my great grandmother, was born in Redenhall. When she married she described herself as a servant. And the person she married was Robert Hutton, her first cousin. Robert, a drain maker who worked in Banham Brickworks, was the son of Robert Johnathan, born in Kenninghall, and Mary Ann nee Kemp, born in Banham. The Kemps were Banham stock and Mary Ann's father Christopher, born in about 1797 in the village, was a brickmaker. Mary Ann's mother, also Mary, was another Banham girl.

One of Mary Ann's sisters, Eliza, seems to have married a Bower. Nan had an Aunt and Uncle called Bowers who lived at Hunt's Corner and helped bring her up.

Robert Johnathan and Mary Ann Hutton had twin sons. One of them died unnamed at birth and the other carried the family names, Robert Hutton.

There is an interesting story my dad told me about Laura Louisa's marriage to Robert. "My Grandmother was in service in London and she was being courted by a chauffeur. My grandmother had a set of coins which were made into brooches and ear rings. They were cut out like filigree right through the coins and this chauffeur had done this. Apparently she (Laura Louisa) wrote to her father saying that they were getting engaged and he rode up to London with his horse and trap and brought her back and married her off to her cousin."

Laura Louisa got married in 1886 so it must have been a very early car that chauffeur drove!

The Howards go back to Thomas Howard, also an agricultural labourer, who was born in a little place called Hopton and married a woman called Ann from Long Cottenham. They seemed to have jitterbugged around Cambridgeshire and Norfolk. Their first son was born in Wicken, their next two children in Landbeach, then Banham. Landbeach is worth a visit. It seems to have been preserved almost totally intact since Thomas and Ann Howard were living there in 1840.

Nan once sang a campaign song on video for me, supporting an election candidate called Wodehouse and suggesting his rival, Boyle, should be thrown in the river. Nan would have been about ten when this election took place.

And of course, when we went to the little grocer's shop, we didn't go round the front, we used to cut across the path at the back. Great Grandmother always used to do that Saturday night, do all her shopping. She only had to go just outside.

(Did you ever go to a market?) No not in Banham. We used to go to Diss on Fridays, the buses used to run after the war. A man used to come round, bring the groceries round sometimes, if Gran couldn't go. They used to have a big van and they'd see what you want and they'd bring it round.

(Your mother used to make wine?) Oh yes, in great big stone jars in the pantry. She had a lot of those big earthenware pots, because we lived near a brickfield. She used to make a lot of wine, Rhubarb wine and Parsnip wine. Parsnip wine was the best. Right at the end of the garden used to be a lot of rhubarb, what she used to call Giant Rhubarb. She cut that up, put it in a big earthenware pot and put yeast on the top and let it ferment. Then she strained off the liquid into jugs and that, big jugs. Then she'd put it in bottles, but she wouldn't cork them. She'd put the cork in but she wouldn't screw it down until a certain time. Then she'd screw it down and they were all in the pantry under the shelves.

(Did they ever explode?) You often used to hear a cork go pop,'oh' mother said 'there's another one out, that will be coming up'. She'd go in then and take the cork out. Let it get down.

(When was the wine drunk?) Anybody that came in my father, your Great Grandad, used to say 'come on have a glass of wine'. And they all used to have a glass of wine. 'Come on we'll have one of your glasses of wine'. And you couldn't drink much of that, I can tell you. It used to be strong.

Grandad said he was stationed once during the First World War in Ipswich and he said that a woman there had a lot of home made wine and he had some of that and he said my goodness me we only wanted two glasses, he said, 'we were nearly drunk'.

(Where did your mother store the food?) There was a red brick pantry then a little piece of wood went across so Gran used to keep all her bottles under there. Over the top of them was the cupboards and the shelves where she kept everything, china and that. She used to keep a big earthenware pot for bread with a white cloth over and lots of things like that, big pantry.

The pantry was more like a little kitchen. You couldn't live in it but she had a big table where she used to do all her cooking. I can see Great Grandmother now making her bread, and then putting it in the tins and leaving it until she had done all the other cooking, in the back place outside.

She used to do all the cakes and that, get them ready. Then she put the oven on, used to have a fire underneath the oven with a little door to it. You open that oven and lit the fire and put coal and stuff in and get it hot.

(You could afford to buy coal?) Yes coal. And when it was hot Great Grandmother used to do all the cooking. She didn't put any more coal in that, I think. She put all the cakes, tins of cakes, in the oven and then at the end the oven would be a bit cooler for bread. She'd do about 14 loaves of bread in this oven. Two shelves. And then when she took them out, I forget how long they took, she'd take them out, bring them in put them on a table in the pantry and turn them out and then bang them, see if they were done, pat them on the top of the tin. And she used to bake like that. This was Friday.

The oven had brass knobs and a big knob where you opened the door, with two shelves. After she'd cooked all the cakes, she used to fetch lots of tins of cakes, and a big pot of rice pudding, weekends.

Another thing she used to get a lot of liver, we used to call it fry, a lot of liver and stuff. She used to make a big basin, not a basin, a dish, of all liver and onions and kidneys and all sorts of things, she used to make and then put that in the oven the last thing. That used to cook after she'd done all the bread.

We had a big table in the pantry and she used to do all her cooking and make all her things on there then take them in to the back place. We used to call it the shed but there was a big oven in the wall with the brass knobs.

Mother, your Great Grandmother, she used to do a lot. She used to have to fetch all the water from the well. But Grandad used to do that, as well.

(You had a well?). Yes we had a well. And they all had to fetch the water. Sometimes if there was a man next door, when Great Grandad wasn't there, they'd get the water. But I think your Great Grandad used to fetch the water and fill the copper up for washing on Monday. They never did anything on Sunday. They wouldn't fetch a pail of water on Sunday. That was always fetched and in the pantry. Your Great Grandad used to get two pails of water so that Great Grandmother had water there for the weekend. Oh no, they wouldn't do anything on a Sunday. Even the work basket was put away if it was out, on the top, it was put in a cupboard. Nothing was seen on a Sunday like that.

She told me she used to sit up till 2 o'clock in the morning making us dresses, and things. No shops much to go and get anything. She had all us girls and she made our dresses, and oh we used to look nice, especially when we went to an anniversary at the Sunday School. And when the older girls went to London to work they used to send us hats down. They'd send a big box, with perhaps two or three hats. The hats had all little wreaths of buttercups and daisies and that and we all had a nice hat to go to the anniversaries.

We left school at 14, and I went to live on a farm where there was only an old couple. It was very lonely. I stayed there sometimes with them. Just a little farm he used to run. He used to have another man to do lots of things but the old lady, his wife, she was invalid, crippled with rheumatism. So I used to do all the cottage for her. Clean and do everything, cooking, when I was 14, but they were nice people.

The farm was between Banham and Kenninghall. Just a walk each way. It was very very nice though. I enjoyed it. Well I used to earn a shilling a week. I used to get all my food though, plenty of good food and a shilling a week that helped to buy the clothes. I used to give that to Great Grandmother and she used to put that away for clothes, you can't imagine it can you now?

The next farm I went to had children. I went there to look after children. A little girl and a boy. Their name was Folger. That was only a walk from Great Grandmother's. I used to stay there, sleep there as well. I used to look after the children and help her in the house.

You had to go down a lane to their farm. That was a bigish farm. Sometimes I used to help her in the house. And they used to have about once a year what they call the shooters. They used to come and stay there. Mr Golby, the gentleman that ran the shooting party, and the other men what they call the shooters.

Sometimes your Great Grandmother used to go on the farm, to help them, in the house. Especially when they had the shooters and they'd shoot the pheasants. Mr Golby used to bring his brushes, you know they hit the bushes. And my mother used to go and help to cook the dinners and help the person in the farm to help the men, cook food for them. They'd go in front and they'd knock the bushes so that the pheasants flew out and then Mr Golby and the other gentlemen would shoot the Pheasants. The men put up at the little public house that was near us.

(When did your father die?) In the end the doctor said he'd have to go away because your Great Grandmother couldn't see after him. It was too much. He got so she had to lift him every time and he was a big man. So they got him into a home and he didn't live long. We always said he'd never live long if he was taken away from mother. No he didn't live long, well perhaps it was a happy release, wasn't it? I forget how old he was but he was not old like me.

Great Gran was, though, she was 90 when she died. But her memory went, well the doctor said they go wandering when they get to a certain age. I hope I don't. If I do I'll have to go into a home. Somebody said 'oh no I don't think you will'. Well Poor Gran was on her own a lot, I think. Your Great Grandmother, my mother. She was a long time on her own, you know. It was lonely. She said it used to be lonely at 4 o'clock after she shut up, in the winter time. You know it got dark. Then you have to light up. She said she used to go to bed very early you know. You get lonely don't you?

(Which sister did you get on with best?) My sister Ivy in Liverpool, she was a bit older than me but she was really sort of a favourite sister of mine. And then Rosa, the youngest one that lived near us, we lived near each other in West Norwood. She lived near Streatham. But we saw each other every day she was very nice Rosa, the youngest. We were the last two. My sister Laura, the eldest one, was a school teacher. My Grandparents brought her up. When she was two years old she went to stay with them. And then Grandmother said could she stay on? Well she stayed on a bit longer. Then she stayed on quite a time. They got her as a school teacher. They were very friendly with the reverend what's- his-name. My Grandfather was a big church man, and that's what they used to do so she was a school teacher my eldest sister Laura, she was named after Gran.

Frederick Robert. He went to Canada when he was about 25. You know after the war there was no work in the village. So two friends of his they all went to Canada you know to get work there and I think he got work soon after he got out there. He was very home sick. That worried your Great Grandmother. But he found some very nice people with a little child and he loved children. And she wrote to Gran and she said 'don't worry about Fred'. She said 'he's quite happy now, he's settled and I've got a little girl and he's quite happy now, being with us.'

Great Grandmother was very pleased to know that he was not unhappy. He was home sick when he first went out, but there you are. They couldn't get work, so they went out there. And then he got married out there. I think he had five children so there must be some children out in Canada now. His eldest son died when he was 21 out swimming. He drowned and he was the only son Fred had. He had four girls but we don't hear anything now about them.

(Which sisters were living in London?) My sister Ivy in Liverpool. And my sister Mabel. and I think my sister Alice. She married somebody from a college in the village. He was a foreigner, Portuguese. They went to a college, which was closed during the First World War, but she met somebody there. She was nursing the school master's children. They used to go out walking. They used to wear the mortar boards and they used to go walking with a school master. And my sister used to be out walking with the school master's children. Sometimes they'd stop and have a look at the children and he admired sister and met her afterwards. He found out from Great Grandmother where she'd gone and he got in touch with her in London, and so met her.

(What happened to Ivy?) She went to Liverpool. She met someone during the First World War.

(Where did you all go in London?) We were all in West Norwood. Oh, I was in Streatham once with a dear old lady she said 'oh , dear if I had plenty of money wouldn't it be nice if we could go and live and have a cottage in the country.' She was ever so nice. I liked her. I was there four years. Streatham.

(How old were you when you went to Streatham?) Oh about 16. I went to London because the others were there. West Norwood and Streatham, I went to Streatham first. I had another sister living there. Your friends used to get you a job. Well there was nothing in the village to stay there. I went looking after children, like a nursemaid.

Nan had an illustrated Bible which had two inscriptions. In the front it said "Hilda Hutton
Award from Banham Weslyan Sunday School
July 28, 1910". In the back it said "Hilda Hutton
23 Chestnut Road
West Norwood SE27
1918"

(How many?) Two, then I went to one place where I had three children. And we had night nursery and day nursery and I used to take them and get them ready about 11 o'clock till dinner time when I'd bring them in. Get their clothes off. Made them go in the day nursery while I was tidying up different things. Then we used to go down. They had their breakfast with the parents at first. I put bibs on the little girls. And then I'd have mine with the other maid. And then I'd take them out, up to the other nursery, get them ready to take them out again. We used to go round Dulwich Park or Brockwell Park. We used to meet each other, it used to be nice.

(Were they all country girls?) Not all of them, some of them were London. But we used to meet. It used to be nice.

(Where did you sleep?) Lovely bedroom, right near where the nurseries were. No, I slept in the night nursery with the children, and two little girls each side of me. One was only a baby, so I used to get up in the night for her, when she cried. But I loved that job. Aunt Rosa used to say: 'You have it, I wouldn't have a job like that'.

(What job did she do?) Working (in a house). Well there was nothing else for us to do. But she wouldn't do what I did, nurse the children. She lived with an old lady and it was really nice. It was like home there. I used to go there sometimes for a meal.

(Where was that?) West Norwood. So we all met. We used go to Brixton sometimes and we used to go in Lyon's and have tea and we used to go to the pictures in the evening. They used to have nice picture shows.

(Where did you live before the war?) Knollys Road, that was a lovely place and then war came, two years after I lost your Grandad, so it was hard work really. Your Dad was very good, very good.

We had a big house that Aunt Rosa and I had between us. They had the upstairs and we had the downstairs. Because your Grandad liked to do the garden.

Your Dad and I went to stay with (Laura and George Fairclough) during the last war, at Reapham. Aunt Rosa and her two, Jean and Victor stayed with Great Gran. They wrote from Reapham and said would I go and be with them because they didn't want to take strangers in. So we went and lived with them and we were with them three years. Your Dad will tell you all about that. Everybody got away from London. They were evacuated. But we had places to go and people used to say 'aren't you lucky, to have somewhere to go'.

(You used to move a lot before the war?) Yes, if we were unhappy in the flat where we were, because if perhaps people where we were upstairs were not very nice. We used to try and get another one. So we'd move again and get nearer the shops, we had quite a nice time though.

(Did you rent the house) Between us at 1 each which was quite a lot out of our money.

(Did you have a lot of money?) Well your Grandad, he had a good job in the civil service and I had more money than Aunt Rosa. I think he was getting about 4 a week, which was a lot of money then. It seems a little now. He used to give me the 3, like a 1 for the rent and 2 for my house keeping. Part of that I used to put away for clothes, I was very good with money, and buy your Dad's clothes and whatever I wanted. I used to buy all the clothes.

(Did you work) Not while your Grandad was alive. But after I had to.

(Was Grandad a good musician?) Oh yes, he'd play any sort of instrument. He played the piano lovely. We had a piano then, it was lovely then but it was dreadful after he'd died to think I hadn't got anything much then. Yes he used to play the piano lovely. The children upstairs, Jean and Victor, they used to say 'can we come down Auntie Hilda to hear Uncle Len'. He used to play lovely

His mother, she would be your Great Grandmother, she was a music teacher and she taught all them to play but he was good, but not Uncle Jack he was a real army man. He went into the army, and he didn't do much at home, not Jack. He was a big man, much bigger than your Grandad.

He died a year after your Grandad, and they'd both of them been through wars. Jack, Uncle Jack, was a regular soldier and he'd been through all that and he just got a cold and pneumonia and died. And he'd been all through the wars. A regular soldier. He was sergeant in the army. We had a military funeral at Streatham. I remember going.

(What sort of music did Grandad play?) Well we used to go to the pictures a lot then, the Regal, and at the interval they used to come up and sing and play. But do you know your Grandad could go home and play that, he could remember the tunes. He played a banjo mandolin and he could play a violin as well. But I always used to like him playing a piano best. That was nice. I did miss him a lot when he went. All those nice things.

(Did you sing?) Sometimes, we used to yes. The lovely songs they used to play at the Regal and that. We used to sing a lot while I was doing my work in the house. People would come along and say who was that singing. I was always singing. But people don't today. This (the tv) has spoiled it. It's spoiled conversation too. We used to have some lovely times, really. We never had anything like that but we were happy. We used to read a lot.

I remember the last time I went to the pictures. I went with your Dad, to the Regal at West Norwood and he said: 'Mum, I'll get the tickets' and he knew the girl in the kiosk. He said: 'go on you walk on I'll get the tickets' and the girl said 'who's the young lady you're with'. He said: 'it's my mother'. 'Go on,' she said 'that's not your mother'. I must have looked young. Anyway, we used to have some fun. Your Dad told me that when we got inside. He got the day off so we went down there for the afternoon. It used to be nice, the Regal at West Norwood. Used to enjoy that. I think they closed them when they used to play bingo.

(Did Grandad ever play with a band?) No. We had the piano in the front room. He'd go in there and play while I was getting dinner on or something like that. It used to be nice to hear him play. He played by ear, but he could play by music. Your Grandad. He was a trade unionist, secretary for the trade union, he was secretary for the Labour Party, West Norwood. Oh, he did a lot of work your Grandad did. He was very clever too. Uncle Jack, his brother, he was quite nice. I remember when just after your Grandad died Uncle Jack said:' If you like you can come and have rooms with us. We've got a very big place, and I'll look after Alan.' Well when I told your Great Grandad that, he said: 'No Hilda that wouldn't work. There'd be jealousy.' I wouldn't do it either. I rather like to do my own. They didn't have any children (Jack & Eileen).

After I lost your Grandad people came for me, 'oh Mrs Brind we heard you're looking for work'. I could get any jobs. I used to do daily work so I could be home for your Dad. I thought to myself 'never let him come home and find me out'. I'd have his dinner ready when he came home from school. I wouldn't let him have one at school. I'd be there. I'd go out in the morning after he went to school. I'd take him to school for a time, and then I got some girl to take him. Gave her sixpence a week, she used to take him. He went to Hitherfield Road, quite a nice school. I'd be home dinner time to get his dinner and then about 2 o'clock I'd go out again and do another job. I used to work pretty hard. That was terrible after losing your Grandad because I had such a nice comfortable home and everything was nice, but I was very careful with the money I got. They had so much money from the civil service. Your Great Grandad came with me and so he said 'what are you going to do?'. I said I'm going to put it straight back into the Post Office. He said you're doing the wisest thing. And I said when I want anything for Alan, his clothes or mine, I can take a few pounds out, so that it's there. He said 'yes, you're wise because some people would spend it'. That's what I did. I forget how much I had from the civil service. It was quite a little bit you know to put in the Post Office.

(When did you meet your husband: Grandad?) Where I was working as a nurse, they called me 'Miss, someone wants you on the phone'. When I went to the phone he said 'excuse me I'm so and so, your friend has asked me to phone you. Would you meet? Can I meet you at the dance tonight?' So I said 'oh yes, yes'. That's how I met him.

(What was your friend's name?) Dora. We used to have a nice time in West Norwood. Go to the Regal and go out for walks. Meet boys.

He came and met me where I was living, at first, and they called out there's someone wants you at the side door. And then we all went to a dance. We used to go to the dances at Brixton, at the town hall Brixton. Then we used to go to one at Norwood at the Brotherhood. And we used to go to quite a lot of dances. And then we went to a dinner and dance. I always remember some lady where I was nurse. She said: 'I've got the very dress. You're going to a dance and a dinner, so,' she said, 'it'll fit you' and it was a beautiful dress. It was cream and it had all shells, all little tiny shells on. And we used to have our hair done very nice then. And the old gentleman that was taking the tickets going up the stairs. 'Oh my dear,' he said, 'you do look nice'. 'Well thank you,' I said. And then I was going into meet your Grandad then. I think he was the MC for the dance.

(Where did his family live?) Loughborough Junction. It was just a tram ride or bus ride from West Norwood, tuppence I think, two pence. It wasn't very far you could walk it if you wanted, a good walk.

(When did you go to Banham?) Sometimes it was August and sometimes it was September. When your dad got a bit older we had to go during the holiday time, school holidays. But we used to have a lovely time there. I liked Norfolk, lovely. We used to have some lovely holidays. It didn't use to cost us a lot for our holidays because every holiday your Grandad had three weeks holiday from the civil service, didn't they? And we used to go down there for three weeks holiday and he really used to enjoy that. He used to love the country. And we used to spend a lot of time down there with Great Gran and the cottage.

(Where did Grandad work then?) In London. It's on my tongue, I've forgotten. There was a big Post Office. What was it called?

(How did he get to work) By bus, sometimes train, sometimes. Train to London Bridge from London Bridge to, now where was it? I've forgotten. I think he went from West Norwood to London Bridge and from London Bridge to, can't think, can't think now. He had a good job in the civil service, secretary for the trade unions, he was and when he went into the Labour Party he was secretary for the Labour Party, West Norwood. He did a lot of work he was very good, Grandad. Well, I think your Dad has done a lot too hasn't he but not quite like your Grandad.

(What was the difference?) Well, he did a lot of secretarial work, you know. There you are he died when he was 40, that was sad wasn't it? That was young. But we had wonderful holidays down in Norfolk. He used to love those holidays.

(How did you get on with the Brinds?) They were very nice. There was Aunt Alice and Renee, the younger one, and Jack and Eileen. Bess was the oldest one. I didn't care much for her. She lived upstairs. She had three boys and they were little devils. When I used to go there, Uncle Jack said I like Alan much better than I like those boys. His mother was a dress maker and his Dad, your Great Grandad he was a printer, a wonderful man. They were very nice. But I went my own way. I didn't want to go and ask anybody for anything. I never asked your Great Grandad for anything.

(What was John Brind like?) He was a fine looking man. A big man, a fine looking man. But he did help me, not with money, I wouldn't take money. He came to Somerset House with me because I had to go through lots of things to get the money from the civil service. I had to sign papers and that. He showed me what to do. I was so upset and all that. And I remember the old gentleman that was at the back when we went in to do all this, he said: 'Don't worry my dear, just take it easy.' He could see I was in deep black then. 'Take it easy,' he said, 'it's quite all right'. Because I was all of a tremble writing and all that.

Yes that was terrible when he was taken. That was an operation. Getting better too and then I blame the sister for that. She had his throat painted. He couldn't stand anything like that. He used to retch. He couldn't stand anything on it. And I think he burst the stitches or something. He was coming home, or going convalescent because he said 'bring my raincoat'. I blame that sister for that, but you can't do anything can you?

(Where were you evacuated?) Reapham that's right. To my eldest sister's, Laura. She was the school teacher. She was brought up with my grandparents. My grandad was a marvellous clever man, different to your Grandad. He used to ride a bike five miles from his home to where we lived in Banham from Bunwell. And he was quite old then when he used to cycle.

(About how old was he?) Oh, I couldn't tell you but he was getting on then.

(70?) Could have been, I forget how old he was when he died.

(If he was 70 he would have been 25 years younger than you?) Oh yes, I forget how old I am now, I keep saying to your Dad how old am I now? . Oh well I have had some wonderful times. It's been good. I can't grumble at anything really, except during the war.

But still we were lucky, we had places to go to. And the people in Norwood they used to say 'aren't you lucky, Mrs Brind. You've got your people to go to stay with'. I said: 'Yes, I suppose we are,' because I wouldn't have liked your dad to have gone away. He wouldn't have gone without me. I wouldn't have liked him to have gone with the school. I would have been worried about him. If he had I would have gone with him and got a job out where he was.

When it started your Great Gran (Hutton) was staying with us then so I said to Aunt Rosa I must get Great Gran back.

We had all the gas masks in the cupboard just outside the kitchen. I had a little lobby place with cupboards. We put them in there and the first thing when the siren went Gran went and got her gas mask and put it on! Of course there was no gas then, but she thought she'd got to put it on as soon as the war came. Then we had a big air raid shelter, so we all went down in that.

(An Andersen shelter?) No what's the other one we used to have in the house? An iron thing it was. Mrs what's-her-name downstairs had to have it in her kitchen because it was on the floor. You mustn't have one if there's a cellar underneath. You had to have it down on the ground floor. So every time I used to go down to them and we used to sleep under this shelter. There used to be me, Mrs Moore, Paul, her little boy and Mr Moore.

(It sounds crowded?) No it wasn't crowded. I slept at the other end, Mrs Moore and Paul the boy and Mr Moore..

(It must have been very uncomfortable?) Well we went to sleep anyway, and when there was a siren we put the pillows over our ears so we shouldn't hear if anything dropped.

At the bottom of the road, there was one of those big squares with very old fashioned little houses and they said it wasn't a very nice place. That went down like a.......

It seemed as if that was to be. You know to get rid of all that. But we put the pillow on. I said: 'Oh we've got it this time'. We could hear it coming. And as soon as the noise broke off we knew it was going to drop. They used to go like that, make a funny noise, and then they used to turn and drop.

And the big orphanage opposite where I lived, the firemen took it over, and the fireman said: 'My word', he said, 'I thought you'd got it this time.' He said we were out watching. It came here to where your houses are and then it turned and dipped and went into the square and the whole lot came down. But the people were in the church crypt, you know they used to use those for shelters, and so nobody was killed. So it was a happy release. They got rid of all that. Well I expect they got their own home back, wouldn't they?

(Why did you come back?) Aunt Rosa came back because she said 'I think it's over now' and so I said 'well I think I'd better go back then'. We went back and then that started these fly bombs, doodle bugs they called them. So that was that.

We went through it I tell you except that we were lucky. We were away three years at Norfolk and were quite all right. We had quite a comfortable time down there.

We used to see them going over to London, the planes. Oh a lot of them going over. You've seen them on television haven't you? And If any of them had had a collision or anything all those bombs would have come out, some people got killed through that.

We lived, we lived. It was terrible because I had to go out to work, because I'd lost your grandfather. And some man grabbed me once. I thought: 'whatever's he doing', pushed me in the shop, he said: 'wait for it,' he said, 'there's one coming over'. And good thing he did that went booh at the top of the road, took a lot of houses down.

There was one girl, she was rather a peculiar sort of girl but she had a dog and she was always out with this dog. Everybody liked her and used to talk to her and she was killed and the dog. She was at the top of the road, the man said. He said she must have been blown to pieces. We went through quite a lot then. Although we had been away three years we came back and got all that.

I used to go and look after a couple of old people, get their meals, because the daughter had to go out, and I said: 'I can't stop and look after them because,' I said,' I can't get them down into the shelter. So,' I said,' I can't come any more. You'll have to get them away.' She had to get them away, take them right away somewhere.

You see well I was risking my own life, wasn't I? We was often down the cellar. Bliming cold it was too, damp...but there you are.